Never forget

[Javelin]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/National_Park_Service_9-11_Statue_of_Liberty_and_WTC_fire.jpg

[Ayce]

I'm Canadian, and I won't forget. :mad:

I saw a poll on my home page that asked who would be the best President to find Osama. They had Obama and McCain listed, but forgot "neither"
The worst thing about this "war" is, the troops are not sure who the enemy is, as they don't wear traditional uniforms, and could be anybody, male or female. On that note, with the full body covering some women there wear, for "cultural and religious reasons" how can they even be sure there are women under there?
As I see it, the problem started back in the '80s, when the U.S. helped Afghanistan defeat the Soviets, then left. The Afghan government wanted the US to leave a lot of US $$ for "rebuilding" but they didn't, and that p.o.'d a lot of local tribal leaders, OBL among them. And then along comes the Taliban, who made matters even worse. Destroying ancient Buddhist statues which had been standing for hundreds of years, in the name of their "god" (yes, I did that on purpose) and religious laws, they got the rest of the world on their backs, but thumbed their noses at us. Then inflicting old, not ancient, religious dogma on their society, and destroying any progress they had made toward any semblance of freedom. Then they banned the growing of opium, (well they managed to do one right thing), but had no backup plans to alleviate the economic destruction that caused. So they drag the U.S.'s self-serving foreign policy into it, and blame them for the problems. Of course, the U.S. doesn't respond in their favour, so they use terror to try to get what they want. All they got for the attack was to get the U.S. and it's allies, Canada included, mad. Then GWB decides, on the advise of greedy military advisers, that Sadam Hussien was involved, and decides to finish the job his Dad started. Bad idea from the get go, IMHO. He should have concentrated on going after the original perps at the beginning. He used the 911 attacks as an excuse. Not advocating SH at all, mind you, he needed to go anyway, sooner or later.

All I can say is, it's a good thing OBL and his minions didn't attack Canada directly, because, if history is any kind of indicator, we wouldn't have pussyfooted around and, once the attacking leader had been identified, we would have just gone over and KICKED HIS ASS!!!!!!!! (Which, imo, the allies should be doing anyway, but the anti US sentiment is too strong for civilian help, they just run off to the US and Canada, then try to change our society from within. That's a whole other war, which I won't go into right now.) If civilians get hurt in the process, so be it. THIS IS WAR!! Don't blame the allies; they are here to help, as much as the people of the country want, (whether they want it or not.) As far as distinguishing the civilians from the enemy, that's up to the civilians to decide how they will react to the troops. Maybe they should consider a change from "traditional wear" or find a way to force the militants to wear some kind of uniform. That won't work, though; terrorism would lose the advantage, if the "good guys" knew who the "bad guys" were.
On another note:
The Taliban sent an open letter to all Canadians, advising that the next PM should recall all troops, so they won't get hurt. LOL Anybody remember WWII propaganda? I support all our allied troops. Unfortunately, this has been going on too long, as it is. We should have had OBL in custody by now, but there are some who don't want the war to end, as they are safely getting rich back here, and other places, while our troops go in harm's way on a daily basis.
Personally, I think it's time to leave the Afghans in whatever passes for peace. They are a tribal country, and nobody can force democracy on anybody. That is not true Democracy. Maybe it's time to put Star Trek's "Prime Directive" to use, a concept that was invented by Lester B. Pearson, a Canadian, by the way. (Do not interfere with the development, or lack there of, of any culture, or individual, no matter if it offends our way of thinking or not, or if we agree or disagree with their current forms of governance, traditions, and way of life, unless specifically asked to by the leader of said culture.) This is not a quote, just a paraphrase.

In ending my rant, (sorry 'bout that, this subject gets me going), I don't blame any specific country or person for this war. I blame greed, for money and power, for it, pure and simple.

[Bill_Wood]

Very nice Ayce. But, there is one thing that puzzles me. Why did Busch give a warning and hesitated about attacking? When Pearl Harbor was attacked there was no warning or hesitation at all. We just went and kicked butt. If civilians get hurt and killed that's part of war. You never heard people complaining about that during WWI,WWII or the Korean war. Did the terrerists think of that, heck no. I know what it's like to not be able to tell the difference between enemies and civilains. I'm a Viet Nam Vet. Been there done it. But, the US has helped out alot of countries through out the years. Some of those countries has turned against the US. It's like biting the hand that feeds you. There was a song that came out in the early 70's that was recorded by a Canadian about something to this fact. I can't remember the name of the guy or the name of the song. But, I do remember it.

[Javelin]

To see how serious the terrorist threat is and how uninformed most of us are, watch Obsession, its a real eye opener
http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/

As to trying to point to any one or combination of things that caused this terrorist threat or why they hate us, there isnt any. Jihad is a religeous ideology, (and this only applies to radical islams, those responsible for most worldwide terrorist attacks.) they have been trying to purge the worlds religeons for thousands of years. The west represents everything they hate. it is thier DUTY to spread Islam to all the world.

As for your Star Trek analogy, it is flawed. That only applies for non-warp capable civilizations. On earth, all terrorist have warp, they can reach us, anywhere, anytime and do, all countries, not just the US. I must admitt, I am tired of being the worlds police force, but just remember:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

[roadweasel]

Sounds like we're not forgetting too much. Freedom isn't free. I've been watching some History Channel replays of what happened 8 yrs ago. It's making some people angry all over again but some of us never really stopped being angry about it. I'm all for our *volunteer* force to keep going and we should be funneling as much support in that direction as possible. Terrorists only understand killing to achieve their ends, on any scale possible or imaginable. In dealing with this type of enemy, one needs to be willing to use that enemies tactics against them if one seeks victory. Trying to split energy and resources between "Peaceful Negotiations" and "Covert Tactical Operations" and "Policing Actions" gets ludicrous after a while.
I agree - they are not like us. Their tribal warring lifestyle is theirs, not ours. So we go remove the head of the snake, and allow the body to wiggle about as it may. Game over, come on home, boys. If it was that simple, it would be wonderful but weave in the web of political and financial goals it becomes much more complicated.
I want the bastards who planned 9/11 to pay for their crime, personally, whether it's in an International Courtroom or a cave in some Pakistani mountainside blasted into a missile induced oblivion. The rest of it is beyond my scope, but I want them terrorist punks to pay for what they done.

[Four-Speed]

Well said, some of us will never forget. I'm prior military and if I wasn't to old I would have reupped that day. I want them bastards to pay for there crimes.

[Ayce]

To answer Bill Woods question about why Bush et al, warned but hesitated about going after the perps.
In WWI, II and Korea, and, to a point, Vietnam, we knew who the enemy was via uniformed and badged military personnel and equipment. As I mentioned in my previous post, the enemy now doesn't wear a uniform to identify them. If memory serves, this goes against the "articles of war", so therefore, this can't, by definition, be a WAR. Only one side is marked, and the other hides in the guise of civilians, making the allies easily targeted by the enemy, while they hide.
When WWI started, the allies knew it was the German gov't that supported the attack on the Prussians.
In WWII, it was an obvious attack by the Japanese Militay in well marked aircraft. The U.S. tried to stay out of it, up to that point, officially, at least.
Korea, although a war of politics, also had uniforms, so again, you knew who's side was who's. Vietnam was pretty much the same thing, except the guerrilla forces, and that is where things went bad. Even as recent as GWI, the enemy was uniformed. Now the allies are in Afghanistan, where there is no uniformed enemy, so how do you know who to shoot at? VC guerrilla tactics all over again. (Seems the terrorists learned more from the Vietnam war, than anybody else did.)

I will agree that a lot of these countries "bite the hand" so to speak. They don't want the U.S. to actually help them get on their proverbial feet, the just want U.S. $$$$$$$$$ to pay for their corrupt, usually unelected or self appointed, government officials.
At this point, my opinion is that the allied forces should get out of the middle east altogether, and tell them to go screw themselves, and don't ask for our help again. If that pisses you off, so be it, but be warned: attack our countr(y)ies again, and we will kick your asses to the next habitable galaxy.

I know a lot of people would say "we need the oil" but do we, really, anymore? We need to put all our collective heads together, in an entreprenurial fashion, not letting greedy investors dictate the terms, and end the reliance on not-so-cheap foreign supplies.

Even after the Germans and Japanese were defeated, they accepted the U.S.'s help to rebuild their war tattered countries, with some cash, and a lot of "Good ol' American Know How", these former enemies became allies.
Oh jeeze, there I go ranting again.

Oh, and for that "song" , I wonder if you mean this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwv-dndrMDE

[Bill_Wood]

Yes, Ayce that's the song. I agree Four Speed about reupping. But, I don't think my jungle fighting would go well in the desert. Those peoplr over there are crazy. They would kill their own mother for money and power. Bush needs to realize one thing. The French and the Brittish could not control them at all. The fighting over there has been going on for centeries. Yes, I do believe that they are plotting more attacks on us. But, it will from within the US. Are we prepared for it? I can't answer that. I do know this, the 911 attack may have been prevented. On that day there were fighters based in Syracuse, NY and would only taken them about 5 minutes to get there. They were Marine fighters. They are still there. They fly over me everyday. To me it sounds like too much politics and that's wrong.