What is your definition of a "real" american car?

[Frank]

This is partly directed towards what cars could be applicable to MWO as well as what's generally considered a "real" american car among enthusiasts.

Mainly as I can see it then it seems the definition is that it's a distinctly styled american-made car with a front-placed large displacement V8-engine and rwd. However if that's the case then what about cars such as the Dodge Viper RT/10+GTS and SRT-10+GTS, Saleen S7, Mosler MT900, Chevrolet Corvette C4 ZR-1, Shelby Cobra+Daytona, Ford GT40, Tucker Torpedo and probably some more?

Of course, several new american cars are made outside of USA, while a lot of japanese cars, and I think also some european ones, are made in USA but are still not considered american cars. By that definition then wouldn't the De Lorean DMC-12 qualify as an american car, despite the english construction, north-irish assemembly, french engine/transmission and italian design?

Frank

[Ayce]

Hi Frank.
You are right about American made cars in that context, however, what MWO will have is "Classic International Muscle", and "Hot rods". My old school definition of "Muscle" is:
"Full body styled vehicles that resemble something you would go to the dealer and pick off the showroom floor, with a large displacement, normally aspirated (carbs), V8 engine". Think of a body builder that has a good base, and works out every day, pumping iron and eating a healthy diet.:cool:
"Hot rods" on the other hand, are usually bought second (or third, or more) hand and built up/torn down and worked till they resemble nothing like what they were, but go fast as hedoublehockeysticks. Using the body builder again,think of the skinny "before" guy from the old "bully" ads. Does the exercises, pumps the iron, uses the special diet, till he becomes the "after" guy. :eek:
Some of the cars you mention don't really qualify,imo, as "classic" American muscle, because the average joe can't afford them. They're more like American exotics. Except, maybe the Tucker.;)
I won't go into depth on "ricers" but imo, using the body builder yet again, they are more like the guy who doesn't want to work hard for results, so he gets his muscles from a bottle. :rolleyes:
Anyway, I rant. Gotta get to work, so I'll shut up now, and see how many bees I stirred up when I get home.:ciao:

[roadweasel]

MWO will include whatever Ken wants to include. It's his concert so he gets to call the tunes. We the community can suggest cars (hence the car suggestion thread) for inclusion but ultimately it's Kens decision, there's no pre-defined paramater of American Muscle/Hotrod he's going by. If it's cool, and has American manufacture roots, and Ken likes it, you'll probably see it in Motor World.
I'm surprised more people aren't doing the necessary footwork to be sure their favorite is at least given consideration. That's why we put the car suggestion thread up. Be sure to read the guidelines in the first post in that thread before you post suggestions though, so it doesn't just get tossed into the reject pile straightaway.
http://www.motorworldonline.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41 (Car Model Request Thread)

[Taigo]

Hi Frank,
Well, im not a especialist on the subject, but i had some automotive design lessons and also readed some books.

The automobile as a object, is based on principles.
"American cars" turned into a style over the years, you can have a american styled car built and sold only on Australia, England or even in Japan.

It´s relativelly easy to explain a car technical aspect, the form and appearence is a way different story, but to make a long story short.
Basically:

* European styled cars are clean and elegant, without or with very little cromed parts or surfaces.

*American styled cars are usually full of cromed parts, americans love to pile loads of chrome anywhere they can find a place for it, the lines tend to be "heavier", vinyl tops, wood imitations, posing for luxury and also the solid metal body is a part of the character but it´s not used on the newer stuff.

* Japanese are flexible, and use to follow closely the taste of the consumers around the globe.

Personally i don´t think the Delorean as a american car, stills pretty nice but it tends more to the european style.
From my point of view, assembly and engine doesnt have anything with style and definition.

[Mopar4life]

well a buick gran national is a muscle car and its a turbo V-6. But my definition is an american car that has more than 4 cylinders, preferably V-8, and is rwd, and stock off the showroom floor it can run a decent time in the quarter and has over 250 hp(some cars have less that i consider muscle cars). And i also think that a muscle car has to be from the mid 50s through the 60s and 70s and a few from the 80s like the monte carlos and gran nationals and the comaros etc.Any thing older is a hot rod and any thing new is sh*t or modern muscle. Thats just me but ill probably look back at this post and want to add more or somthin but thats my opinion.

[Frank]

Thank you all for the replies, I see my rough idea of what an american style car is fits in the same ballpark as yours. Of course nowadays then a lot of cars, at least in my opinion, seem to be a mix of different styles although that can also create some cool results (but also some really horrible ones, can you say: Pontiac Aztec?:eek:).

Vic: I do know of course that Ken's the boss, however I thought it could be interesting to hear what people defined a classic american car as.
I also see that the request thread hasn't been used that much so I've gathered a few ideas of classic american cars that I'd like that I didn't see on the list yet and I'll post them as soon as I gather some specs, pictures etc.

Greetings
Frank

[Doomsmoker]

Muscle Car: 2 door American rwd mid-size car from the factory with a more powerful engine option. Example being the 1962 Dodge Dart with the 413 cid Max Wedge motor. The 1949 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 is considered by some as the first muscle car. It was a lighter bodied car with the first high-compression V-8 designed for the performance loving crowd.

[greaserboy]

I won't go into depth on "ricers" but imo, using the body builder yet again, they are more like the guy who doesn't want to work hard for results, so he gets his muscles from a bottle. :rolleyes:



Ricers or Imports?

If you are making a generalization about imports, you are being foolish.


I hear this alot from ignorant people who are afraid of technology and change. Any hillbilly can throw together a V8 and go fast. Ive seen enough of them driving IROCs to know.

I come from a family of V8 Mopar, including factory Hemi ad 440+6 cars. Turbocharging, fuel injection, electronic engine management and small displacement is the way to go.

Take a look at what most manufacturers are doing today... I heard today that GM is going away from V8's and going back to turbo V6's.

My 12 second Turbo Spirit gets 25mpg and I have power windows, locks, mirrors, power seat and all the luxury options. I may go 11's this year as well without a loss of gas mileage.

[Doomsmoker]

Hillbillies!!! What does this have to do with muscle cars? Honestly if i saw an ugly Dodge Spirit or Plymouth Acclaim out at the track I'd laugh no matter how fast it was.

[Mopar4life]

I love my v8 and carburetor and gutted inside with a ten point roll cage. I will forever laugh at imports cause if u can make a car without new technology go faster than one that has the technology, id say thats great, but i dont need a computer for my horsepower.

[KEN]

If you want my honest opinion muscle were 2 door, rear wheel drive cars (some cases 4 doors) made from 1962-1974, with large high performing V8 motors and lots of torque. I don't consider a Buick grand national to be a muscle car rather its a turbo V6 or not because of all the emissions equipment which KILLED the muscle car to begin with. I also tend to lean towards the Webster definition of powerful V8 motors when it comes to "muscle". That's just my personal opinion though and it doesn't really mater what I think. ;) I do however appreciate modern muscle which is anything after 1974 to today. The Buick grand national will be in MWO but it will be with a stock 305 V8 motor. You will also see early/moderen muscle from around the world, hence motor "world". :) I would love to get a delorean in the game but it kind of breaks my V8 rule. I heard they are remaking the delorean again, I'm curious if maybe there will be a v8 option? Could give me a good excuess to have it next to the Grand Nat lol.

http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/a8ae903b91a7bee12753552dd69ef83b28486cc2_m.jpg

[[WC]streetrod]

Before all the polution they put on the cars near mid 70's. Anything past that was slow but as long as it wasent a Honda I would drive it lol.

Have fun and keep racin,
streetrod

[421HO]

I would have to say that a muscle car in the narrowest definition would be an American made car made between 1964-1972. It was an intermediate body style, meaning it fell in-between a compact and full size car. It was V8 powered and rear wheel drive. Most people agree that the 1964 GTO started the muscle car era, although Pontiac was not the first to come up with the big engine, small car idea, they marketed it better than anyone else. A muscle car in a wider definition seems to cover any cars that were high performance based no matter what size the vehicle is. Pony cars tend to get grouped into muscle cars if they have higher performing engines installed. Firebird 400's, SD 455 Trans Ams, 396 and 454 Camaro's, etc. Full size cars also tend to get called muscle cars if they have higher performing engines too. Chevy Impala 409's, Pontiac Catalina 421's, etc. Although I hear high performing Corvettes grouped into the muscle car category, I believe that they are sports cars as they were only two seaters. Yea, they came with 454's and 427's and had gobs of power, but they are still two seaters.

[roadweasel]

Meybe we should include a Sport Muscle group for the vette, delorean, viper, banshee 2-seater type cars? I know the guys working on this game and I bet they could rig a v8 option for that delorean. :)

[Frank]

A V8-powered De Lorean? That's already been done in several ways, my preferred version was this http://www.motorworldonline.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=27&pictureid=207 Just about 25lbs extra weight and very few mods needed to install, and the testcar performed several long distance trips and showed perfect reliability.

If you want raw power then Banks Engineering once made one with a turbo Buick V6 with more power than a Z06 (and I'm not talking about the C5)!
http://www.motorworldonline.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=27&pictureid=208

Speaking of De Lorean and power, did you guys know that the ItalDesign Ford Maya concept that was ready to be built and had a 3L V6 and AWD was actually started as the next DMC-12 but the project was eventually linked to Ford instead. Seeing the two cars then it's easy to see the similarities, especially since we know that it was JDZ that insisted on full sidewindows instead of the classic Giugiaro closed sides which the Maya also has.

Btw, the new cars will be made from new parts but will essentially be the DMC12 mk2 (the prototypes count as mk1s) as was produced in 81-82 although there is a new engine trim, Stage-2 Crate, which gives 197hp but still basically a NA PRV-V6. Stage-3 I think was intended to be turbocharged, and there are new rims and a all-new design for the interior. Speaking of engines then the BTTF car was actually powered by a Land Rover V8 (which was originally based on a Buick V8 way back). The very first idea for what became the DMC-12 was to use a mid-placed in-house made Wankel (rotary) engine!

Btw, Greaserboy, I don't think Ayce was bashing imports, japanese or not. I think he was stating his opinion that people using the Fast and the Furious as a guide on how to build a fast car, by just using nitrous oxide instead of carefully building an engine from carefully selected parts who are carefully installed, finetrimmed etc.

Personally I use the term Ricer to any car that's designed a'la FnF, especially if the owner has that bad/laughable attitude that their car can beat everything on the street and they think they are oh-so-cool. If people modify cars a'la FnF but as a rolling work of art and they drive responsibly on the road then that's fine, it's not my style, but it's acceptable.

Frank

[[WC]streetrod]

I have seen a V8 in a De Lorean before, wicked stuff.

Have fun and keep racin,
streetrod

[roadweasel]

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/general/musclecars-definition.shtml
there ya go...

[Ayce]

Fits the bill for me RW. ;)

[Mopar4life]

my 340 dart aint a muscle car according to them.

[Turbo6Tech84]

The Buick grand national will be in MWO but it will be with a stock 305 V8 motor.
http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/a8ae903b91a7bee12753552dd69ef83b28486cc2_m.jpg
Thats crazy not to put the 3.8 Turbo six in the game. That motor has been swapped into a countless different type of vehicles and is very formidable to the v8s. I think that would be real dissappointing not having the correct drivetrain in a vehicle. The GNs from 86-87 never had a V8 in them. Might as well drop the GN and just put a Monte SS in it. Im not trying to tell you how to make your game but Id just like to see correct stock cars.

[roadweasel]

I believe I heard ken say a while back that eventually the database would include the v-6 but that to START out, we'll have mostly all the same parts groups and types from MCO. Let us get this thing fired up and running smooth before we add tons of other bells and whistles, ok?

[Turbo6Tech84]

Definitely the main goal here is a working game that we can sell our souls to. I just wish to see the little details like the 3.8 V6 in the game it just makes sense. If you guys ever need any info on the GN motors I have a decent amount of info on them. Like the typical upgrades and the bigger upgrades I can go on and on about it. But thanks for the reply hopefully later on when the game is ready to go youll most likely have a suggestion box or whatever and ill bring it up then. Thanks for the hard work guys and cant wait for MWO to go live.

[Doomsmoker]

Thats crazy not to put the 3.8 Turbo six in the game. That motor has been swapped into a countless different type of vehicles and is very formidable to the v8s. I think that would be real dissappointing not having the correct drivetrain in a vehicle. The GNs from 86-87 never had a V8 in them. Might as well drop the GN and just put a Monte SS in it. Im not trying to tell you how to make your game but Id just like to see correct stock cars.

I completely agree with this guy.

[KEN]

Don't hold your breath for V6's in the first few releases. It's something we plan to do, but not for a while until we beta test the 2000 parts we already have for V8's. If you don't want to see the Buick GN with a 305 just for beta testing sakes then that's fine I wont include it until we add the 2000 other parts we intend to add.

[Javelin]

What is or isnt a muscle car is a debate that will never be fully resolved. Some definitions are broad while others are very narrow, neither are right or wrong. I could care less if people think my Javelin is worthy of that title, its a pony car, its fast and I love it and thats enough for me.

Just because a car or engine is formidable doesnt mean it should be included in MWO. There are many of those that wont and shouldnt be added. I dont speak for Ken or the others but I know they will create an enviroment that we all will enjoy. I trust them.

[Turbo6Tech84]

Don't hold your breath for V6's in the first few releases. It's something we plan to do, but not for a while until we beta test the 2000 parts we already have for V8's. If you don't want to see the Buick GN with a 305 just for beta testing sakes then that's fine I wont include it until we add the 2000 other parts we intend to add.

Im all for the GN being in the game, better in than out in my opinion. I just can't wait to play this game, I missed MCO for the longest its great to see someone taking the initiative to recreate such a community. Keep up the good work thanks

[Turbo6Tech84]

Just because a car or engine is formidable doesnt mean it should be included in MWO. There are many of those that wont and shouldnt be added. I dont speak for Ken or the others but I know they will create an enviroment that we all will enjoy. I trust them.

My argument was that if your gonna have a car in the game you would hope to have it the way it came out of factory. I mean you wouldn't put a 305 in a 1970 Chevelle SS. As far as the 305 being in the GN I really dont mind that much anymore as long as my car is in the game.

[421HO]

Hey Ken, if and when you guys do decide to introduce V-6's, do not forget the Pontiac OHC Sprint engines from 1966-1969. They were quite powerful engines and very much ahead of their time, but it was a V8 world back then and they lost out. V-6's would be interesting engines to tune and work on. A nice alternative to always working on a V-8.

[DevilMan]

My argument was that if your gonna have a car in the game you would hope to have it the way it came out of factory. I mean you wouldn't put a 305 in a 1970 Chevelle SS. As far as the 305 being in the GN I really dont mind that much anymore as long as my car is in the game.

My first car was a 70' Chevelle Malibu (4 door at that) with a straight 6 in it. That sucker would rock everyone off the line, but once I shifted to 2nd, the big blocks would catch up and walk away from me. If races were only a block long, my ole 250 with the boat cam in it would surprise even the most cockiest of hot rodders :eek: Except some times that damn converted 3 speed would stick (it was 3 on the tree, but we changed it to the floor) and Id have to lay underneath it and try to knock it outta gear with a hammer. You can imagine going on a first date, and I slam the car to a stop, jump out with a hammer in my hand and lay on the ground cussing at my car. ahhhhh to good ole days.

[Cheats]

Devilman you made me remember my first car, that was along time ago but I loved it dearly. It was a 74 Nova SS with a 350. I drove the hell out of that car and wish that night with the drunk trees running out in front of me never happened. I would love to pick up another Nova SS but my current project car is keeping me broke.