Hi everyone, and some ideas of mine.

[Firebird13]

First off, sorry for my extremely long post. I just kept writing and couldn’t stop.

Well I don't know where to start so I'll just say I used to play MCO. I don't remember much probably because I was like...13 or so at the time, so I made my name Firebird13 on here because I think that was my name in the game, and in the hope that someone might remember me, lol. I think I also had a name like PJHale13. All I really remember was that I was in a fairly large clan, I wasn't the leader but the step down from that, whatever it was called. I remember the leader was my bud online; he was def older than me and was from Michigan. I think his name was something to do with Dale Earnhardt or Jr. and was something like... DaleEarn3 or EarnJr8, I don’t know but there could be a ton of combinations like that. Anyway if anyone knows who I am, tell me! haha.

I’ve had a ton of ideas for the game. No one ever believes me but when I was little and used to play my Nintendo game boy, like the really old version, black and white, I remember telling my mom about an idea that they should come out with a game that was like real life, and blah blah blah. It was basically the equivalent to a mix between The Sims and GTA, but I guess EA and Rockstar both beat me on the production. I’ve also had tons of ideas for MCO since MCO was online and I remember I even sent them in as feedback or something once. One idea was the whole thing about the open world that you can drive around and see everyone, race with whomever, possibly have cops, drive to racetracks and load from there, and anything else that could go with that. Test Drive Unlimited has a pretty good setup but the game became very boring and wasn’t very in depth. I've also had some other ideas but they’re probably a little more unrealistic.

So instead of just ranking/leveling like we did in MCO, we could rank in different aspects of the game. For instance, there could be racers, car builders, tuners, car dealers, parts dealers...as many as you could think of. Obviously, racers could build engines if they wanted but there overall output and durability would be less. Car Aand part dealers could purchases parts from the game at discounts and sell them at their shops, higher rank, better discount and the ability to stock more parts. Tuners could tune the car in more ways, more exactly, or overall just better. I could say a million more things about this but you get the idea. Also if anyone’s ever played “Star Wars Galaxies” they used to have a tier ranking system, it would be really cool to have something like that. If you’re confused at what I mean I’m probably going to try to talk about it again when I get my thoughts in order and maybe make a little tier thing to show. I really think this idea would be pretty cool. This would require people to work together to get the best cars and best times. Kind of like an online MWO economy.

As for cars, I think it would be cool if we could kind of have a random output of cars based on real statistics. For example, say there are 100 different cars in the game and in real life we will say 1,000,000 of all these cars were produced. Therefore the average car would have 10,000 produced in real life. Although none of them are produced in the same amount, so say a rare car on earth only produced 100, in the game it would spawn 100 times for every 1,000,000 of the average cars spawned were as most would have spawned around 10,000, or once for every 10,000 average cars spawned, where others would have been around 100 each. These obviously aren’t real numbers but just to get an idea. This would allow the rareness of each car to stay the same at all times during the game, if no one was buying normal cars, then the normal cars wouldn't re-spawn and therefore the rare ones wouldn't either, but if a lot of normal cars are being bought then they will spawn at whatever rate is determined by the rate of normal available cars being bought. Hopefully I made that understandable. I’m not sure how they were done in MCO, but I thought this would be a pretty cool idea.

Also as most of you know to become a registered clan? or whatever it was in MCO, you had to pay like 500k or something. Well, I thought we could also level the clans as well. For instance, each player will have a level, no matter what "profession" (racer, car builder, dealer) they are. Based on their level and available money they would be able to buy houses/garages. These would allow for more room to store cars and parts. Likewise, clans would have a level based on some aspect such as growth or cumulative level of players, clan wars, something. And as they grew they would have the ability to buy larger clan buildings. This would allow for larger area to store cars, parts, possibly equipment such as a dyno or something expensive that would allow for an extra edge in performance of cars when used on them. Clans could then work together to compete in the online world of MWO.

If any of you ever played Forza 2, I like that game quite a bit just because of the physics, you probably have seen some of the amazing paint jobs. I think that would be really nice to integrate into the game. This way everyone could make their car unique. There could be actual car shows in the game because everyone car would be different. I thought for a second that a painter could be a profession in the game but after I thought about it for awhile, everyone should have the chance to customize the looks of there car how they want so I don’t know how good that would be as a profession because then certain people would be able to do more with the paint jobs than others, but that’s just my opinion.

I know I have more ideas but that’s what I could think about off the top of my head. I’ll have to think about it some more and write down my ideas as they come to me and post again later. See what you guys think of some of my ideas, throw em around, think of some more, post em here.

Also, to the devs, I’ve taken some computer science classes in college know. I really like coding, :D call me weird. I know I’m not that good yet but I’m doing mechanical engineering and I’m going to be taking some CS classes so if I could possibly do anything, just let me know. I start summer in… 5 weeks so I’ll have some time. I know quite a bit about cars so I thought maybe my knowledge there could make up for my lack of coding ability. Course I have no clue what type of code you guys actually work in.

Sorry for the long post,

PJ

[roadweasel]

Hi PJ - welcome to Motor World. You should post your ideas in the thread titled discussion on leveling, etc. Would be the perfect spot rather than over here in right field all by yourself. But be sure for goodness sake that you detail it out immaculately or marros might grade yer paper... lol read the other thread and you'll get the joke...
Glad you found us.

[Firebird13]

Roadweasel;1353']Hi PJ - welcome to Motor World. You should post your ideas in the thread titled discussion on leveling, etc. Would be the perfect spot rather than over here in right field all by yourself. But be sure for goodness sake that you detail it out immaculately or marros might grade yer paper... lol read the other thread and you'll get the joke...
Glad you found us.

Well right field is important too, but I'm hoping people will come and post all ideas, not just leveling, ect. Although I think I might not get too many people on the account that they wont read my huge post, lol.

Personally, I understood everyones ideas in that thread. Some times it's harder then others to get your exact point across but you get the general idea and it's good to get opinions from every point of view and keep an open mind. I would say thats how the greatest games are made. Anyway, changing games in the middle even if for the better can get people really mad. I know first hand from playing quite a few online games, but of course since MWO would be free I guess it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

[Marros]

I like most of your ideas, especially the clan/club/guild/whatever details. I think it would be great to have deep community extensions like these, but I'd hate to think how much longer it would take to get the game out the door if everything we wanted were put in the game. I'd definitely like to see some of these suggestions in the game, but it would take time to implement them properly.

By the way, SWG was one of my favorite MMO's (well at least until they screwed it up), so I totally understand what you mean there. Although I would love to see a system like this in place, I am just afraid that it would not have the desired effect and would become like every other MMO around these days. I said something similar in response to the other thread.

[Firebird13]

I agree with you 100%. I think if this was a big company making a game then these kind of things would be perfect, but under the circumstances most of them aren't very realistic. Just kind of a dream about what would be the best game. Possibly if MWO becomes a big hit and something big happens. This is more of a "in my dreams" thread, lol.

SWG was great back in the day. I was never a big fan of Star Wars but it's hard to beat them on the amount of content in that game. I've recently seen a friend across the hall playing EVE online. It seemed like a pretty cool game and I really liked the fact that it was all on a single server and what seemed to be a one huge world. This may have only been possible because a lot of that space is probably taken up by exactly that...just space, big open areas of nothing.

Also I don't know if a lot of my ideas could work just because MWO would be free and people could make as many accounts as they want. I think one thing that kept SWG flowing so well is the fact that it was hard to be able to do everything on your own, and the fact that it took such a long time to get to a high level on that game, before they messed it up.

[roadweasel]

People won't be able to make as many accounts as they like. In fact you will only be allowed one persona and anyone caught making duplicate accounts will simply be banned.
The game will start fairly simply but as for what the future brings - well why else would we ask what you think?

[Firebird13]

Well I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that I have yet to play a game where they have been able to keep people from creating multiple accounts. I'm not sure how its done... I'm just saying its going to be different with a free game compared to a monthly payment game or even a game you initially have to buy.

Also like I said, I believe MWO could become a huge hit someday and I hope to see that happen. Personally though I like very detailed games that really get into things like SWG. I know it probably turns some people off because they don't want to learn it all and just want something easy to play. There are plenty of easy racing games out there if you want to go play and if you want a online community then theres forza, test drive, plenty of games with all that.

Marros says he doesn't want to see it become like every other MMO but thats what MMO's are and thats what people pay for in most of those MMO's, tons of detail, ranking to the top, becoming the best of a huge amount of people. The fact is, although some of my ideas may be MMOish, could you point me in the direction of a car game that has those aspects? No, because there has never been one made. You must remember how long ago MCO was made, it was a great game for its day but in todays standards it is very outdated. Game technology moves very fast. I'm not saying that I wouldn't be happy with something half as nice as MCO was, but I'm just saying, think if MCO was still running today. It would have changed quite a bit, and in MMO fashion it would probably have become similar to all MMO games in certain ways. So overall what I'm really saying is, yes, I would like to see MWO do some of the things MMO's are doing, but no, it wouldn't be like every other MMO.

[Wraith]

I don't think their goal is to model it after the genre. The only thing is that technically it is online, with tons of people, loosely fitting it into the genre MMO. It isn't defined by the genre, it just fits into it sort of. MMO in itself doesn't say anything about what the majority of MMO's have in them.


For instance, there could be racers, car builders, tuners, car dealers, parts dealers...as many as you could think of. Obviously, racers could build engines if they wanted but there overall output and durability would be less. Car Aand part dealers could purchases parts from the game at discounts and sell them at their shops, higher rank, better discount and the ability to stock more parts. Tuners could tune the car in more ways, more exactly, or overall just better.

This is something I strongly disagree with, as you may have noticed in the other thread. I do not like the idea of "professions" aka "classes" where one class can do A and B well and suffer in C and D. If you want to make your profession as a car builder, then that's what you'll do, but giving "stats" to different "classes" is more MMORPG, isn't it?

What you end up doing is forcing "racer class" people to go to "engine builders" and "tuners" to get the most out of their car. I am emphatically against that notion. Everyone should be able to do what they like and not be below anyone else. All options should be open to everyone, not limited by a class designation. Good engine builders will get business just from their actual ability to do something well, not from a stat bonus in the game. The same goes for others. Teams/Clans will probably incorporate racers and builders, but those of us who do not want to be involved with a clan or have to rely on other people to build their cars will be put at a disadvantage with a "class" system.

I like your idea on car spawning rates, letting the real life production amount determine how often the cars spawn. It is very dependent on having the data, though.

As for garage space, I like the idea that someone else presented, which, again, leans toward my bias on everything being equal -- no classes. It was suggested that garage space simply be bought. If you have the money, you can buy it -- no dependence on level. Obviously, a clan will have more resources than a single individual, so it can buy more garage space.

[Allegedman]

This is something I strongly disagree with, as you may have noticed in the other thread. I do not like the idea of "professions" aka "classes" where one class can do A and B well and suffer in C and D. If you want to make your profession as a car builder, then that's what you'll do, but giving "stats" to different "classes" is more MMORPG, isn't it?

What you end up doing is forcing "racer class" people to go to "engine builders" and "tuners" to get the most out of their car. I am emphatically against that notion. Everyone should be able to do what they like and not be below anyone else. All options should be open to everyone, not limited by a class designation. Good engine builders will get business just from their actual ability to do something well, not from a stat bonus in the game. The same goes for others. Teams/Clans will probably incorporate racers and builders, but those of us who do not want to be involved with a clan or have to rely on other people to build their cars will be put at a disadvantage with a "class" system.

I really hated that in star wars galaxies grinding professions to make jedi. god that was horrible.

the spawn rates is a good idea with the production rates.

[Firebird13]

What you end up doing is forcing "racer class" people to go to "engine builders" and "tuners" to get the most out of their car. I am emphatically against that notion. Everyone should be able to do what they like and not be below anyone else. All options should be open to everyone, not limited by a class designation. Good engine builders will get business just from their actual ability to do something well, not from a stat bonus in the game. The same goes for others. Teams/Clans will probably incorporate racers and builders, but those of us who do not want to be involved with a clan or have to rely on other people to build their cars will be put at a disadvantage with a "class" system.

I do see what your saying, but at the same time I think I see it in a different way. You say "What you end up doing is forcing "racer class" people to go to "engine builders" and "tuners" to get the most out of their car" as if its a bad thing, as where I see that as a good thing. Instead of having guys that go around and do everything, building there best engines, racing all the time, getting up to the top really fast, this will slow that process. I don't think engine builders/whatever will get any type of business, why would they? It would be extremely easy to just go online and look up what the best combinations are. No socialization there and I'm pretty sure thats one of the big keys of online games. If you get what I'm saying?

With the professions it forces people to go to others in-game to get things done, we don't want a game thats like offline yet online. People who just go rank and get tons of stuff and are on the top of the boards but you don't know who they are. My way and it would be like you see someone on the top of the board and someones like "oh yeah he got his engine done by ______" "oh yeah? I think im going to go see him then"....

And you say that this is more like a MMORPG....well yes, but why did you play MCO? Because you wanted to play a role in the game that you don't in real life. Like I said before, if someone wants to go play a normal online racing game, theres plenty. Actually there are tons, and I think if MWO isn't different then how is it going to get ahead? Compare MCO to some of the games out know, although I loved MCO, it wasn't that obviously wasn't that popular then and how is this going to be different? I think thats the real challenge. Making a game that uses those characteristics of MCO that we loved but it todays gaming technology and also somewhat more appealing. Although this is just my opinion and I personally like the whole idea most MMORPG games have. I feel its really just what people are looking for.

As for the grinding profs. to become jedi. I'm not saying thats how this should be, but really it wasn't a horrible idea. It only allowed few people to become jedi and thats how it was in star wars. How is SWG now...full of jedi. Think if people in MCO or MWO could buy any car they wanted, rare cars would not exist. They were trying to keep it similar to the movies. People who didn't play much hated that though so it ended up getting destroyed. I never got close to the point of jedi cause I didn't really like the game that much or have that type of time, but i had no problem not being one because I knew if I could, everyone could.

I think most of the data for the car productions are pretty readily available and other cars could be estimated. I don't think it would be too hard.

[Wraith]

I do see what your saying, but at the same time I think I see it in a different way. You say "What you end up doing is forcing "racer class" people to go to "engine builders" and "tuners" to get the most out of their car" as if its a bad thing, as where I see that as a good thing. Instead of having guys that go around and do everything, building there best engines, racing all the time, getting up to the top really fast, this will slow that process. I don't think engine builders/whatever will get any type of business, why would they? It would be extremely easy to just go online and look up what the best combinations are. No socialization there and I'm pretty sure thats one of the big keys of online games. If you get what I'm saying?

With the professions it forces people to go to others in-game to get things done, we don't want a game thats like offline yet online. People who just go rank and get tons of stuff and are on the top of the boards but you don't know who they are. My way and it would be like you see someone on the top of the board and someones like "oh yeah he got his engine done by ______" "oh yeah? I think im going to go see him then"....

I understand your view, but you are forcing people to do something. In MCO, people did go to others to get engines or get tuning advice. People who were good at it were able to do that.

I said nothing about "getting to the top really fast". In fact, if you've read my posts, I'm against almost all forms of having a "top". Without rank, levels, and profession having any affect on one's in game abilities, we have a system where there is no need to be "leveling".

There were no "best" combinations. The best setup was the one which worked best for you. Some people like different types of handling and can drive better with them. Now I have to go to a tuning specialist in game and try to get him to set it up the way I like it because he gets a stat bonus on the setup?

No, parts are parts, and no one should be able to do something better than anyone else "just because" they chose a different class. This is not a real life game, this is not an RPG.


And you say that this is more like a MMORPG....well yes, but why did you play MCO? Because you wanted to play a role in the game that you don't in real life.

That's definitely not why I played it. You're making a very big assumption on faulty grounds. Games in themselves are a virtual reality with which humans react. Using your definition, all games are RPGs. If all games are RPGs, then the meaning of classifying a game as an RPG is null. No, the distinction of using MMORPG is a genre itself. We could let games which classified as such define the genre or define it in words, either way you understand there is a distinction between other games. MMORPGs have elements which you are describing and which I do not think belong in MCO.


Like I said before, if someone wants to go play a normal online racing game, theres plenty. Actually there are tons, and I think if MWO isn't different then how is it going to get ahead?

There are no games which contain real world parts, with customization of engines, suspensions, etc on a per-part basis. Period. Your assumption is that MWO's distinction would be in professions, and not in its true meaning of being a game which is devoted to muscle cars (how few games are there that even have this?) AND in its ability to customize cars at the part level, using real world parts or close equivalents.


Compare MCO to some of the games out know, although I loved MCO, it wasn't that obviously wasn't that popular then and how is this going to be different? I think thats the real challenge. Making a game that uses those characteristics of MCO that we loved but it todays gaming technology and also somewhat more appealing. Although this is just my opinion and I personally like the whole idea most MMORPG games have. I feel its really just what people are looking for.

This is another mistake I believe you have made: You have assumed that the goal of the MWO devs is to make a game that is appealing to the masses and not the specific community of muscle car fans and the MCO abandoned -- this, as has been stated many times, is their primary goal. The game is free, so what do they gain from having it widely accepted by the general racing gamer community -- a community which thinks Gran Turismo is the best racing series made?

The community of MCO existed then, without classes, exists now, without a game, and will exist in the future, with or without a game.

[kevmeister]

I think I know what yer gettin' at Wraith. I like cars, I like semi's, hell, I like almost anything with an engine. an engine is made up of a combination of parts that when properly assembled make a distinctive thing. when you take that thing and you 'tweak' it here and there, you make it better. a car is the same way, 'tweaking' makes it better. those of us that LOVED MCO loved it because we already had a life and wanted to make it better by sharing what we knew about cars and engines with other people. we weren't caught up in the 'status' of levelling up and having bragging rights ( I wasn't anyways). the essence of why were all here is because of that sense of community (kind of like being in a small town) that we all took away from MCO and a lot of us want it back. I might be rambling but if you just THINK about what I'm saying it does make sense (kinda...sorta...wellll...yeah...I guess so). call me an old hippy (I'm only in my 40's, by the way) but I can't see why we can't make this a good escape from reality (I dodge enough 4-wheelers wandering aimlessly on the highway at night that I need a good way to decompress after work)...like an old friend once told me "peace, love and cosmic rays be with you my child" ( I think he was drunk at the time) LOL...:D

[Firebird13]

Ok...well obviously you are a very close minded person and feel the need to contradict everything I say so here you go.


I understand your view, but you are forcing people to do something. In MCO, people did go to others to get engines or get tuning advice. People who were good at it were able to do that.

I'm fairly sure allowing people to choice a profession is not forcing to do anything. If the game randomly selected them to do something then that would be forcing, but then again I even stated that all professions would be able to do everything only those good at there profession could do it better so that it would force interaction between players in the game. If you choice to be unsocial in a ONLINE game, then you will therefore kind of be penalized for it. Who wants a bunch of loners in a game anyway.


I said nothing about "getting to the top really fast". In fact, if you've read my posts, I'm against almost all forms of having a "top". Without rank, levels, and profession having any affect on one's in game abilities, we have a system where there is no need to be "leveling".

Honestly, I have no clue what your getting at here. You have so many contradictions. First, your saying you don't want a "top", but if everyone has the ability to do anything at the start then they would be at the top already. What would be the point of playing? What stops them from playing for a few days, getting everything and quiting? Would there be credits or money in the game? Would that be what stops people from just doing anything they want at any time? This game would get boring extremely fast like this. Your saying the best system is no system. A game that is credit dependent will just allow the rich to get rich and control everything. Plus, a game without levels has an even lower amount of competition, and I think you would agree that is a big point of games. Many people play to get to the top and without anywhere to go they will just quit. My way would make it much harder to reach the top and then when you were there you would have to still compete with other players to be good at your profession and be at the top of your profession even if you were at the highest rank.



There were no "best" combinations. The best setup was the one which worked best for you. Some people like different types of handling and can drive better with them. Now I have to go to a tuning specialist in game and try to get him to set it up the way I like it because he gets a stat bonus on the setup?

So when exactly is the last time you picked up a controller? Have you happened to have played Forza 2 or Gran Turismo before? Newer games have much better physics then MCO and at the top of the leader boards what do you see? Similar cars with guaranteed similar setups. Your trying to tell me there aren't certain combinations that do the best? lol... wow! This is a game not a real race and even in real races most of the cars are set up very similar. Why, because especially in the game its about finding the car that can make the fastest lap and then making it do that fastest lap. If i agreed with your way then a novice driver with a car tuned for him would be as good as a good driver with a car tuned for racing, definitely not true or even close. Handling can be adjusted slightly for your liking but overall for a certain track a certain combination of parts that may vary slightly will do best on a certain track. Its a game and can only go so far. I was putting out the idea of a tuner as a profession and I thought would be obvious that it would be used more for power, not to adjust suspension and steering. With a tuner making your engine be just that much better not every combination of engine parts would be the same and certain ones could respond better to tuning and therefore make it much harder for people to find certain combinations that output the most power.


No, parts are parts, and no one should be able to do something better than anyone else "just because" they chose a different class. This is not a real life game, this is not an RPG.

Very good, parts are parts. Not sure what that has to do with one person being able to do something better then another but...ok. Anyway, no one gets to do anything better then another "just because" they choose a different profession. It would be because they choice a profession and become a high level at it. Say for instance a engine builder, his engines would be put together better and therefore have more durability and power, kind of like a bonus that will allow them to sell there parts to make money in that way. Other people will still make good engines with good power but the engine builders will have slight bonus.

This isn't a real life game? Are you sure?...My bad, I thought I was going to fly to Motor World and automatically be a lvl infinity. :rolleyes: Although, I really don't know about it not being an RPG. Like I said, almost all games are really RPGs. If you don't know RPG stands for Role-Playing Game, not real life game or anything. In any type of racing game you play the role of a racer or some aspect of the racing community. In Grand Turismo and I think some NASCAR games allow you to be almost like the crew chief. These are roles that you are playing in the game, hence the name RPG.





That's definitely not why I played it. You're making a very big assumption on faulty grounds. Games in themselves are a virtual reality with which humans react. Using your definition, all games are RPGs. If all games are RPGs, then the meaning of classifying a game as an RPG is null. No, the distinction of using MMORPG is a genre itself. We could let games which classified as such define the genre or define it in words, either way you understand there is a distinction between other games. MMORPGs have elements which you are describing and which I do not think belong in MCO.

First off, I am only defining RPG based on its name "Role Playing Game" which I can only assume you had no clue about until now, or I guess I hope you didn't. MMO = massive online multiplayer, I think we can agree that is what MCO was. Also although I only stated the fact that most games are RPG's, doesn't mean that I think all these games are classified in your RPG genre. You can classify them as you wish. Also, I'm not really clear on your reasons why you don't like my opinions, your arguments are poor and most of them are just turning my ideas around. I didn't post for arguments or unconstructive criticism. Like I had stated, if you have ideas of your own you can post them but I've only seen about 1 idea from you and that was to not have levels. You don't support this idea with any good reasons that would make me think it was a good idea and part of your criticism is that some of mine happen to follow the ideas of some very successful games. You seem to reject my ideas because they fit idea you have of a genre of MMORPG's but this is a very very large genre that you have seemed to stereotype as being like many of the more popular games. Also you seem to have no drive to want MWO to be any better or more successful then MCO. I'm not sorry for trying to have ideas that would not only make the game more interesting, more fun, and more competitive but also draw in more people. Your view for MWO seems to a game exactly like MCO, but it has been many years and I feel that we could make a game even better.






There are no games which contain real world parts, with customization of engines, suspensions, etc on a per-part basis. Period. Your assumption is that MWO's distinction would be in professions, and not in its true meaning of being a game which is devoted to muscle cars (how few games are there that even have this?) AND in its ability to customize cars at the part level, using real world parts or close equivalents.

Although MCO may have had more real world parts then other games it's not to say that there arn't other games that have much more tuning ability. The physics on games such as Forza 2 or Gran Turismo will allow for much more precise tuning of suspension and steering then MCO did. They may have not had tons of parts but if this is all you are looking for in a game then I you personally would make a pretty lousy game. I liked MCO for much more then just there large selection of parts. It was a great social and community based game, much like many of the RPG genre games. Although I feel it was such a great game everything has room for improvement and MCO was no exception.

[Firebird13]

This is another mistake I believe you have made: You have assumed that the goal of the MWO devs is to make a game that is appealing to the masses and not the specific community of muscle car fans and the MCO abandoned -- this, as has been stated many times, is their primary goal. The game is free, so what do they gain from having it widely accepted by the general racing gamer community -- a community which thinks Gran Turismo is the best racing series made?

The community of MCO existed then, without classes, exists now, without a game, and will exist in the future, with or without a game.

I believe in making a game this can be widely accepted by many people and become a great large community. I don't think we should try to only make the game acceptable for a limited amount of people but for anyone who would like to join. Also what is wrong with Gran Turismo, it has many very good cars and very good physics and graphics, much better then that of MCO. It just doesn't have some of the features you would like so you block it out.

Your motto is touching but your overall goal is very close-minded and just pessimistic and greedy. The fact is, there isn't a game with all these features out there and I would love one that could bring all racers together in a game that almost anyone can enjoy. This is very similar to many of the people that don't like many of the newer small displacement, turbo, awd, type of cars. I would like to these types of cars in this game also. I understand people who like muscle cars because I love them too, but just like one guy likes chevy and the other likes mopar, most of the them respect the other. They know although they love there type of car the other has its advantages. People who say these newer cars are junk tuner ricer whatever are just ignorant. I have a 79 Trans Am and my dad has a 1970 Chevelle 454 and I love muscle cars, but I also have a 1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD, which if you didn't know is Mitsubishi. After driving my talon my dad has a new found respect for these little cars although he still believes he's going to beat me in the quarter.

Finally, I know that most people play a certain game because they want to play the role of something that they are not in real life. For example, race car game for racer, basketball game for basketball player, Army game for soldier, so on so forth. I'm not really sure why you played but I assume if you felt your life was better off the game then on then you wouldn't have played.

So know for my motto... The community of MCO existed then, without classes, exists now, without a game, and MWO will exist in the future, with or without Wraith, and hopefully even better then it was originally and open to all players.

[roadweasel]

kiddo, you best get used to the idea that Wraith has a good grasp on what's going on here with us. He's been around a while, and he has insights you just don't have. You have lots of great ideas that every zitface with a gaming console would go for, but we're really just making a game to satisfy those of us who have simply hated every racing game that's come out since MCO. You're missing the point entirely of what we miss about MCO. We don't give a hoot about the stridex demographic. We already have a target market, and brats with big mouths is exactly what we wish to avoid so we can keep the community a great place to socialize and hang around. The kiddie krowd can have Gran Turismo and games with all the features you're carrying on about. Kids who want another cooky-cutter mmorpg can go play any one of the many already available and leave poor, stinkin' mwo to us poor backward grown up muscle car crazy nut jobs.

[kevmeister]

hey Firebird, why don't you just take a step back from this whole thing and think about what these other people are trying to tell you. if yer not sure what they're sayin', maybe just close your mouth and listen. nobody's tryin' to flame you or step on your opinion. I tried readin' yer posts but from what I see, yer the only one with a closed mind. I realize that this game might not satisfy your needs but it will satisfy ours (the MCO disenfranchised). I have played these other games you mention but have found that they were all missing the one thing that MCO had; that sense of community spirit where everybody shared what they knew with everyone else. your ideas are well versed and well laid out but they would only serve to fracture the sense of community that Ken wants to re-establish. at the risk of offending your sensibilities, maybe you should just back off a little and cool down...:)

[Firebird13]

hey Firebird, why don't you just take a step back from this whole thing and think about what these other people are trying to tell you. if yer not sure what they're sayin', maybe just close your mouth and listen. nobody's tryin' to flame you or step on your opinion. I tried readin' yer posts but from what I see, yer the only one with a closed mind. I realize that this game might not satisfy your needs but it will satisfy ours (the MCO disenfranchised). I have played these other games you mention but have found that they were all missing the one thing that MCO had; that sense of community spirit where everybody shared what they knew with everyone else. your ideas are well versed and well laid out but they would only serve to fracture the sense of community that Ken wants to re-establish. at the risk of offending your sensibilities, maybe you should just back off a little and cool down...:)

Well first off, I was only responding to Wraith in the way he responded to me, disrespectfully. Like I had said in my post, I was only writing out my opinion on what the game could do, not exactly what it should do. I'm sure Wraith is a superfreak game expert and all but my opinions were just creative and mostly based on logic as his are based on closed mindedness and greed of having a game exactly how he wants. I'm perfectly fine with his ideas but all I asked is for him to state his ideas not to partially state a few of his ideas and try to attack mine with poor arguments.

Just wondering what part of my comments make you think that I am closed minded? I just stated a bunch of ideas... and wanted more. I stated that I would love a game that was half as good as MCO but feel it would be stupid not to strive for something better. Wraiths comments were stepping on my opinions and as I had said I wasn't looking for disrespectful criticism but more ideas. He didn't seem to be able to spit out much more then maybe one unsupported idea. Also, I even showed how many of my ideas would make the community even better. I would like your logic on how my ideas would only serve to fracture the sense of community. I read many of the other threads and I have only come to this thread to state some ideas. I read every part of what Wraith has posted here and so I don't see what closing my mouth and listening would help because as I showed his arguments trying to step on my ideas were poor at best and his ideas just flat out weren't there. And I don't think I need to "cool down" at all because I'm not mad, I'm only making my point.

[Firebird13]

Roadweasel;1407']kiddo, you best get used to the idea that Wraith has a good grasp on what's going on here with us. He's been around a while, and he has insights you just don't have. You have lots of great ideas that every zitface with a gaming console would go for, but we're really just making a game to satisfy those of us who have simply hated every racing game that's come out since MCO. You're missing the point entirely of what we miss about MCO. We don't give a hoot about the stridex demographic. We already have a target market, and brats with big mouths is exactly what we wish to avoid so we can keep the community a great place to socialize and hang around. The kiddie krowd can have Gran Turismo and games with all the features you're carrying on about. Kids who want another cooky-cutter mmorpg can go play any one of the many already available and leave poor, stinkin' mwo to us poor backward grown up muscle car crazy nut jobs.

First, not a kiddo, I'm not sure what "insights" he has but I can only go based on how knowledgeable he seems. If you read his post, his credibility goes out the window with more than just a few of his statements. Secondly, how were my opinions anything like Gran Turismo...and also why would a "zitface", which I guess are the people who go to the dermatologist for zits? or just anyone who has a zit? Anyway, why would they go to a gaming console for the a game that would be anywhere near what I was describing. If you would like to stereotype my ideas on a game into a certain genre I could only think that you would assume it was a PC game. I already stated that I also feel and know why people loved MCO and it was for many of the reason that I and kevmeister stated but Wraith, with his super "insights" did not. Also, as a someone who played MCO at a younger age, I know that MCO had a large population of younger players. My brother and I both played MCO regularly and although we may not have been amazing at it, I made some great friends, many of those who were much older then me. It almost seems as if you guys are trapped back in like 2003, the only reason I state games like Forza 2 and Gran Turismo is because they obviously have done some things better then MCO, such as graphics and physics. I was just stating that it shows we could possibly make a game even better then MCO, and I think it would be pessimistic to think otherwise.

[roadweasel]

First, not a kiddo, I'm not sure what "insights" he has but I can only go based on how knowledgeable he seems. If you read his post, his credibility goes out the window with more than just a few of his statements. Secondly, how were my opinions anything like Gran Turismo...and also why would a "zitface", which I guess are the people who go to the dermatologist for zits? or just anyone who has a zit? Anyway, why would they go to a gaming console for the a game that would be anywhere near what I was describing. If you would like to stereotype my ideas on a game into a certain genre I could only think that you would assume it was a PC game. I already stated that I also feel and know why people loved MCO and it was for many of the reason that I and kevmeister stated but Wraith, with his super "insights" did not. Also, as a someone who played MCO at a younger age, I know that MCO had a large population of younger players. My brother and I both played MCO regularly and although we may not have been amazing at it, I made some great friends, many of those who were much older then me. It almost seems as if you guys are trapped back in like 2003, the only reason I state games like Forza 2 and Gran Turismo is because they obviously have done some things better then MCO, such as graphics and physics. I was just stating that it shows we could possibly make a game even better then MCO, and I think it would be pessimistic to think otherwise.
:rolleyes:
Trust me - to me, you're a kid. Crimeny, to me, Kev's a kid! Why you seem to think voluminous posts = intelligence and/or authority is beyond me. You can hammer away all you want but the point is you're wasting your time detailing your perfect game to us. Insulting us by indicating we're stuck in 2003 is childish.
We asked for ideas and comments on leveling and payouts. We have a "game plan". You insist on telling everyone about what YOU think a game should be. Why on earth should we care? If we bore you, and you feel we're not creating a game that would interest you, kick rocks. Go waste bandwidth somewhere else. Wraith, responding to these posts is futile. He's got his ideas, we have other ideas. Let the kid howl all he wants. I'm moving this post to off topic chatter since he's not interested in talking about the game we're working on.

[Firebird13]

Roadweasel;1416']:rolleyes:
Trust me - to me, you're a kid. Crimeny, to me, Kev's a kid! Why you seem to think voluminous posts = intelligence and/or authority is beyond me. You can hammer away all you want but the point is you're wasting your time detailing your perfect game to us. Insulting us by indicating we're stuck in 2003 is childish.
We asked for ideas and comments on leveling and payouts. We have a "game plan". You insist on telling everyone about what YOU think a game should be. Why on earth should we care? If we bore you, and you feel we're not creating a game that would interest you, kick rocks. Go waste bandwidth somewhere else. Wraith, responding to these posts is futile. He's got his ideas, we have other ideas. Let the kid howl all he wants. I'm moving this post to off topic chatter since he's not interested in talking about the game we're working on.

Ok...I posted my ideas because its a forum for a developing game. I'm not sure what your definition of a kid is but the fact is using names like kiddo and zitface is extremely childish. I never said what I was saying was the "perfect game" EVER. I was only giving ideas about what the game and wanted people in the post to give theres. Usually the best ideas come by throwing ideas around.

Like "oh I like this part but what if we did this too"

NOT "oh I don't this because I already have a set way I want a game and although your posting ideas to make the game better I'm going to be disrespectful and say they are bad without any logic behind it."

Also, saying your stuck in 2003 is not an insult it was more of a metaphor for how you are looking at making the game. I backed this up by showing how you are blind to new technology and ways that the game could possibly be better.

I never said what "I" think the game should be like, they were ideas, maybe you should look up the definition of ideas. You obviously haven't read my post because I have said at least twice that I would love a game half as nice as MCO but see no reason not to strive for something better. So I don't see how you can say that this game doesn't intrest me and actually many of your statement I don't see how you come up with.

I don't feel it is my fault that Wraith has decided to ruin my thread by criticizing ideas with no support as if they are set ways I think the game should be made. My ideas were for this game but his were just to try to insult me. I was making the argument that his closed mindedness will only make the game worse and the fact that you guys cant seem to be able to handle someone posting a few ideas that our contradictory to yours beliefs of a game makes me wonder how old you actually are. So I'm the childish one... :confused:

[roadweasel]

Now your thread is in the correct forum, Firebird13. This post is for your ideas. Have fun! For goodness sake everyone do NOT disrespect this man's ideas, myself included.
If you want to add some ideas to the MWO thread, feel free. Just understand that we ARE building a game that will appeal to the MCOrphan community, as incredulous as you may deem that concept. They are our target market. They have spoken. We are listening.
As for your attitude towards me, you aren't familiar with post-menopausal women, are you?

[Firebird13]

Roadweasel;1420']Now your thread is in the correct forum, Firebird13. This post is for your ideas. Have fun! For goodness sake everyone do NOT disrespect this man's ideas, myself included.
If you want to add some ideas to the MWO thread, feel free. Just understand that we ARE building a game that will appeal to the MCOrphan community, as incredulous as you may deem that concept. They are our target market. They have spoken. We are listening.
As for your attitude towards me, you aren't familiar with post-menopausal women, are you?

Well the point was that he was criticizing my ideas in a disrespectful way, or flat out just being disrespectful, a nice way to say he was being a jerk. I don't think there was any reason for what he said or how he said it and it washttp://www.motorworldonline.net/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif
Red face way off topic of the thread. Also, my ideas were for MWO in general and not gaming in general and I feel placing it in the General Chat was right, and where it should be. Also, I like how you speak for the whole "MCOrphan" community, considering I would be part of that community and I personally would like to see the game be the best that it could be. I feel bad for you if you don't share that opinion with me, maybe you should read Wraiths posts some more, but the only idea he had would have just been for a game similar to MCO but taking away things and I feel that we can make a game similar to MCO but better. I'm saying even though MCO was amazing everything has things that it can improve on, even MCO.

As for my attitude, it has only been a reflection of the attitude I have received. I'm not sure what post-menopausal women have to do with anything but I wouldn't see how I would be familiar with them. I've had grandmas if that good enough for you but like I've stated before I really don't understand many of the statements you come up with because theres really no explanation behind most of them.

[Wraith]

Well, firefox just crashed after typing a very long response to you. I guess that's why I usually type in a text editor and copy it over.

Firebird, your claims are illogical. I'll go ahead and type it up again later on, because I don't feel like typing it again now.

You clearly have very little grasp of reasoning and logic, and base your arguments on pathetic assumptions.

If you are going to do that, please state this in the future before your ignorant posts:
Logic demands all facts, proof, truth tables, etc not be derived assumptions. Humans observe, they perceive information through their senses, which is assumed to be correct. It is not absolute fact, it is relative truth. Absolute fact comes from knowing all possible variables, at all possible times, throughout all possible dimensions of existence. It even demands that any non-existential force that may affect variables within the realms of existence must be known as well. In essence, one must know all things and all non-things in order to prove anything. If, then, any statement by any human has no real meaning or truth -- they are all assumptions -- logic is illogical by man's definition of logic.

Although you probably cannot grasp this, at least post it before your posts; it will help you not seem like a complete idiot.

Oh, btw, I forgot the conclusion you should draw from reading the paragraph above, which should be obvious, but I have my doubts about your capabilities:
If the above paragraph is true, then it is also not-true, or nothing at all. And the sentence right before this is also nullified, as is this one, etc, etc. If you cannot see the infinite paradoxes, you're already wasting my time. However, I will retype the response I lost when FF crashed later on.

[Firebird13]

Well, firefox just crashed after typing a very long response to you. I guess that's why I usually type in a text editor and copy it over.

Firebird, your claims are illogical. I'll go ahead and type it up again later on, because I don't feel like typing it again now.

You clearly have very little grasp of reasoning and logic, and base your arguments on pathetic assumptions.

If you are going to do that, please state this in the future before your ignorant posts:
Logic demands all facts, proof, truth tables, etc not be derived assumptions. Humans observe, they perceive information through their senses, which is assumed to be correct. It is not absolute fact, it is relative truth. Absolute fact comes from knowing all possible variables, at all possible times, throughout all possible dimensions of existence. It even demands that any non-existential force that may affect variables within the realms of existence must be known as well. In essence, one must know all things and all non-things in order to prove anything. If, then, any statement by any human has no real meaning or truth -- they are all assumptions -- logic is illogical by man's definition of logic.

Although you probably cannot grasp this, at least post it before your posts; it will help you not seem like a complete idiot.

Oh, btw, I forgot the conclusion you should draw from reading the paragraph above, which should be obvious, but I have my doubts about your capabilities:
If the above paragraph is true, then it is also not-true, or nothing at all. And the sentence right before this is also nullified, as is this one, etc, etc. If you cannot see the infinite paradoxes, you're already wasting my time. However, I will retype the response I lost when FF crashed later on.

Yeah your response that you probably copy pasted off somewhere else is really nice but holds no value in our argument. Your theory is really touching and nice but then again you have even stated by your own theory, that your theory is false, and therefore not relevant. Also, what you are describing is a fact, not logic. Logic can be based on good assumption because thats how we use logic although it can be good or bad.

say for instance I am told that:
A = B
B = C
They are given and are facts.

I can therefore logically assume that C = A based on facts, but if I also know that:
D = C
This is also given and is a fact.

I can then logically assume D = A based on the assumption that I made that C = A and I can also logically assume D = B based on the facts B = C and D = C.


Now if you disagree or whatever I really don't care I guess I'll put it another way. Could you give any good support for your reasons why you hate my ideas or why yours are so amazing? Also twisting words is not a good way to show support for your ideas or against mine. You understood what I was saying and you are trying to act as if you don't.

Also I look at your previous post and I think you should also. You are very disrespectful to almost everyone you post to. Also almost all your post are just very unproductive especially the ones you've decided to post in my thread. Also thanks for ruining my thread.

[Wraith]

Here's your reply, oh novice of logic: It had to be split into 3 posts.


Ok...well obviously you are a very close minded person and feel the need to contradict everything I say so here you go.

Our views are irreconcilable. My view is in opposition to yours, and because of that your bias finds flaws where there are none by making assumptions. If I am close-minded, then so are you and everyone who has an opinion. Opinions in themselves denote a conclusion based on knowledge. To not have an opinion is to be open-minded, then. Ideally, since humans know nothing, this should be what we strive for from a philosophical perspective; however, since this does not promote a being which is capable of continuing its life, humans end up reaching conclusions based upon their limited understanding of a situation. It could be argued that the meaning of life is void, since a lifespan is finite and not infinite, and that either time is infinite, or non-existence is infinite -- making the lifespan null in respect to the infinite. You really have bitten off more than you can chew.

Now, since you have claimed I have contradictions in my post, let me demonstrate how to show a real contradiction:

I'm fairly sure allowing people to choice a profession is not forcing to do anything.

With the professions it forces people to go to others in-game to get things done

This is a real contradiction. It requires no assumptions to be made. It is obvious by simply reading it. Now, I could assume different intentions in each of the sentences to defend you against the claim of contradicting yourself, but I thought I would just give you a little lesson for further use. I could have also argued that reading is assuming since it relies on a fundamental basis of reasoning in-built in humans. Assumptions are every my little novice, but in the eyes of the people who define a set of rules within existence by which words must adhere, it is shown that you have contradicted yourself outside of absolute assumptions.


If you choice to be unsocial in a ONLINE game, then you will therefore kind of be penalized for it. Who wants a bunch of loners in a game anyway.

This is what is known as an assumption. You have assumed that because I am against a profession system, which you see as forcing people to operate in the community -- forcing sociability (which I might argue simply from a psychological standpoint is impossible), then I must be against socializing in the game. In no place did I state that. In fact, had you been able to read, you would have noticed my ending statement as not a motto, but a direct metaphor. As metaphors seem to be a weak point in your understanding, I'll try to help: The community existed then, exists now, and will almost certainly continue to exist. This is not dependent upon any profession system in the game. Obviously, I could assume that you do not intend to say that, but considering your completely irrational set of assumptions, this is the only way you can seem to have a reasonable thought going through your head. Or I could simply say, that the statement (about the community not being dependent on the game) is not directed to you or anything you said because there is no direct pronoun referring to you -- it is just a statement. I feel you have a lot of problems reading and understanding, although I might be wrong and you are purposely trying to come off as ignorant and pigheaded.


Honestly, I have no clue what your getting at here. You have so many contradictions. First, your saying you don't want a "top", but if everyone has the ability to do anything at the start then they would be at the top already.

Your ignorance shines again, in fact, I don't think it has stopped shining. If you see starting out with equal equal abilities as being at the top, then what is the bottom? You are using a relative word. "Top" must have a reference point, but there is none. Your inventing semantic definitions which have no reference point for reasoning. I could argue it as starting at the bottom, or in the middle, or anywhere else for that matter; however, I choose to see it as I originally intended: no top or bottom. You simply do not understand reasoning. Give me a reference point that is within the system that would give sense to your assumption that not having a top and being equal equates to be a "top" which is non-static.


What would be the point of playing? What stops them from playing for a few days, getting everything and quiting? Would there be credits or money in the game? Would that be what stops people from just doing anything they want at any time?

In what way does having equal stats at building, racing, tuning, etc (i.e. no professions) result in being able to get to the "top" (again we are talking about your invented top which doesn't exist, but for the sake of conversation we'll assume it does)? Yes, there would be a currency system, but any system, currency or otherwise, can be abused and manipulated. Nothing is infallible -- even this statement (let it enter your mind and perhaps you can understand logic a little better). How is not having a profession system allowing everyone to do what they want at any time? I mean these are the things that are just so painfully ignorant and idiotic. I don't want you to draw conclusions. Use my posts and show me where I said these things which you have assumed into existence.


This game would get boring extremely fast like this. Your saying the best system is no system. A game that is credit dependent will just allow the rich to get rich and control everything. Plus, a game without levels has an even lower amount of competition, and I think you would agree that is a big point of games. Many people play to get to the top and without anywhere to go they will just quit.

Consider this: If I suggest a system in which we will have to drink water and eat food several times a day to stay alive in the game, and you say no and offer reasons why it shouldn't be in, should I then assume that you arguing that no-system is the best system, and that this should detract from the validity of your reasoning? You done a marvelous job assuming things, but never did I say that not having a profession system means there is no economy or other systems in place... Yes, in the question of whether there should be professions I say there should be no system implementing them; this does not logically lead your assumptions, and it is beyond me how flawed your logic must be to draw these conclusions.

Boredom is, as is everything in life, relative. You have shown your true understanding of this community. Competition is in racing, not in levels, ranks, ATK+4 ZOMG!! 1337ness. Competition is in building the best engines. Competition is in building the best suspensions. This is what you do not understand, and what you must if you are going to be a contributing part of this community. This community is not shaped by you, nor is it shaped by the game. The game is shaped by the community -- it does not need professions or anything to exist. I tried explaining this to you in a metaphor, but apparently you cannot grasp anything except direct wording, and even then your understanding is loose at best. Creating system which force people to choose which stats they are handicapped in (I'll just point out the obvious, since I'm sure you don't even understand this sentence: having professions have specific bonus logically means that they are handicapped to other professions in other stats -- if not, then all stats must be the same in all professions) is limiting their abilities and knowledge artificially.


So when exactly is the last time you picked up a controller? Have you happened to have played Forza 2 or Gran Turismo before? Newer games have much better physics then MCO and at the top of the leader boards what do you see?

I wasn't aware that not playing recent games affected my understanding of physics simulation such as tires, suspension, etc. However, I haved played and own GT4, and consider it a poor racing game. Let me say I have everything unlocked, before you question my ability to race in it. Clearly GT4's physics are amazing. As we all know, we can take our cars and ride on the side rails without doing any damage. It's physics is crippled by horrible rigidity. How many physics simulation have you written? What are the formulas for car physics? Define what a slip angle is and how to model in a computer system. C/C++ is fine along with pseudocode. Explain why tire physics are most commonly the weakest part of racing physics simulations.

[Wraith]

Similar cars with guaranteed similar setups. Your trying to tell me there aren't certain combinations that do the best? lol... wow! This is a game not a real race and even in real races most of the cars are set up very similar. Why, because especially in the game its about finding the car that can make the fastest lap and then making it do that fastest lap. If i agreed with your way then a novice driver with a car tuned for him would be as good as a good driver with a car tuned for racing, definitely not true or even close. Handling can be adjusted slightly for your liking but overall for a certain track a certain combination of parts that may vary slightly will do best on a certain track.

When did I say that a novice driver + a unique handling made to fit him best will be able to compete with a competent driver? I don't recall this. Was it in a delusional conversation you had with me while you read what I typed? You really need to be more careful when reading and, most importanly, grasping what has been written. It doesn't portend well for your intelligence when you don't.

As most here know, there is more than one way to go through a corner. Each way benefits from a specifically tuned suspension. The medium speed in, medium speed out needs its own handling, as does the fast in, weight transfer slide, medium to low out speed. Depending on the engine setup, power-to-weight ratio, and driver's proclivities, the setup needs to be chosen well. You are basing your argument on a system which has sliders, kits, and a select type of car. If you think there is one best setup for each track that only needs slight adjustments, then you don't know much about racing outside of the games you are used to. I'll agree that if all cars have the exact same engine (cannot be modified), with the exact same power-to-weight ratio (cannot be modified), with the exact same chassis (cannot be modified), then there are only a couple choices for the best tuning.


Very good, parts are parts. Not sure what that has to do with one person being able to do something better then another but...ok. Anyway, no one gets to do anything better then another "just because" they choose a different profession. It would be because they choice a profession and become a high level at it. Say for instance a engine builder, his engines would be put together better and therefore have more durability and power, kind of like a bonus that will allow them to sell there parts to make money in that way. Other people will still make good engines with good power but the engine builders will have slight bonus.

Parts are parts. Aside from including actual mechanic schools, testing of knowledge, and practical demonstration, it would implement an artificial for no reason other than them being of a specific profession which they choose at the beginning. While we're at it, we should be including eating and sleeping. Getting in game jobs with benefits. Will have to have diseases and viruses which we'll go to the doctors and pharmacists in game for. Of course they'll have to complete 8 years of college to get those positions. I do not like artificial limits that have no reason for being there other than a decision made. If you want me to support professions, ask the devs to implement a testing and school system to assert one's abilities in a specific field.

People who know how to build cars in the game will have people buy from them, because, since you played MCO, you know people were always asking for help in game for their setups. I assume that if you know that there are universal best setups, then you were on top of the leader board? Why wasn't everyone on the leader board? Personal skill and knowledge for doing something is what should matter, not limitations and bonuses forced by a profession system.


This isn't a real life game? Are you sure?...My bad, I thought I was going to fly to Motor World and automatically be a lvl infinity. Although, I really don't know about it not being an RPG. Like I said, almost all games are really RPGs. If you don't know RPG stands for Role-Playing Game, not real life game or anything. In any type of racing game you play the role of a racer or some aspect of the racing community. In Grand Turismo and I think some NASCAR games allow you to be almost like the crew chief. These are roles that you are playing in the game, hence the name RPG.

First off, I am only defining RPG based on its name "Role Playing Game" which I can only assume you had no clue about until now, or I guess I hope you didn't. MMO = massive online multiplayer, I think we can agree that is what MCO was. Also although I only stated the fact that most games are RPG's, doesn't mean that I think all these games are classified in your RPG genre.

First, you assumptions hurt you badly here. I've been playing RPGs longer than you have.

Your reading skills at work here again. If you could understand that I was pointing out that the logical conclusion from what you were claiming about MMORPGs and MWO was that MWO should have those qualities because it is an MMO and that I must have played MCO because you believe I was playing a role in the game. To this I responding by saying: By that reasoning, all games are RPGs, since they are a virtual reality. This was an idiotic reasoning on your point, and I trying to aid your understanding of how foolish your conclusion was. You based your reasoning for why your systems should be implemented on the association that in MCO people played a role. This is done in every game. Again, this goes back to the "top" issue. You don't seem to grasp that if all of set A is in set B, it is meaningless to define another set which includes all of set A inside set B. Ignorance at its best.

Break-out is an RPG by your idiotic reclassification of all games, since when you play break-out you are role-playing the paddle and adhering to the rules of the game. Those rules do not apply in real life. I merely trying to save you the embarrassment of making a fool of yourself.


Also, I'm not really clear on your reasons why you don't like my opinions, your arguments are poor and most of them are just turning my ideas around. I didn't post for arguments or unconstructive criticism. Like I had stated, if you have ideas of your own you can post them but I've only seen about 1 idea from you and that was to not have levels. You don't support this idea with any good reasons that would make me think it was a good idea and part of your criticism is that some of mine happen to follow the ideas of some very successful games. You seem to reject my ideas because they fit idea you have of a genre of MMORPG's but this is a very very large genre that you have seemed to stereotype as being like many of the more popular games. Also you seem to have no drive to want MWO to be any better or more successful then MCO. I'm not sorry for trying to have ideas that would not only make the game more interesting, more fun, and more competitive but also draw in more people. Your view for MWO seems to a game exactly like MCO, but it has been many years and I feel that we could make a game even better.

Please, give a rational explanations as to why my arguments are poor. I, and rational thinkers, do not accept "your arguments are poor" as the proof of the claim. If that were so, then I suppose I could just say, "You are an elephant", and, when asked for proof, my response would be, "Because, you are an elephant". That in itself, from a purely philosophical perspective is not true or false, since it cannot be proved or disproved. However, I don't think you are trying to be philosophical, nor do I believe you have the capacity to do so. Since I've torn apart your pathetic little attempts at reasoning and slander, I don't think you will be able to conduct a proper, logical analysis to prove your claim correct. You've shown a very low capacity for rational thinking, and it is unlikely that any further responses from you will be of any greater ability.


Although MCO may have had more real world parts then other games it's not to say that there arn't other games that have much more tuning ability. The physics on games such as Forza 2 or Gran Turismo will allow for much more precise tuning of suspension and steering then MCO did. They may have not had tons of parts but if this is all you are looking for in a game then I you personally would make a pretty lousy game. I liked MCO for much more then just there large selection of parts. It was a great social and community based game, much like many of the RPG genre games. Although I feel it was such a great game everything has room for improvement and MCO was no exception.

Yes, because we all have real-life slider bars that allow us to change the handling of our real-life cars. You didn't understand my post either, again... I said the community exists separate from the game. It is not dependent on it. The game is dependent on it. That is why the game is distinguished by the parts and ability to customize to a great level, similar to real-world customization, lacking the act of physically installing and customizing a part.

[Wraith]

Your motto is touching but your overall goal is very close-minded and just pessimistic and greedy.

Apparently, having an opinion different than yours is close-minded. The only open-mind, then, is one that embraces your idea and supports it.


The fact is, there isn't a game with all these features out there and I would love one that could bring all racers together in a game that almost anyone can enjoy. This is very similar to many of the people that don't like many of the newer small displacement, turbo, awd, type of cars. I would like to these types of cars in this game also. I understand people who like muscle cars because I love them too, but just like one guy likes chevy and the other likes mopar, most of the them respect the other. They know although they love there type of car the other has its advantages. People who say these newer cars are junk tuner ricer whatever are just ignorant. I have a 79 Trans Am and my dad has a 1970 Chevelle 454 and I love muscle cars, but I also have a 1996 Eagle Talon TSi AWD, which if you didn't know is Mitsubishi. After driving my talon my dad has a new found respect for these little cars although he still believes he's going to beat me in the quarter.

Here is the difference between you and me: You didn't mention my name in this part, so I'm not going to infer any implied meanings you might have had in this paragraph. But just so you do know: I like a couple imports, and I love driving AWD cars. This doesn't mean that I believe that they should be in this game, though.


Finally, I know that most people play a certain game because they want to play the role of something that they are not in real life. For example, race car game for racer, basketball game for basketball player, Army game for soldier, so on so forth. I'm not really sure why you played but I assume if you felt your life was better off the game then on then you wouldn't have played.

Why play a sport? If you play a sport, then I suppose by the same reasoning it means that your life must be better with the sport. Amazing as it might sound to you, I enjoyed playing the game. I enjoy doing things. I enjoy things that interest me. Shocking, I know, but this is why I played it. It didn't have anything to do with whether I felt my life was better with or without it... Pleasure is part of being human, as is pain. Most sane people avoid pain, and don't avoid pleasure. Some people seek either for various reasons.


The community of MCO existed then, without classes, exists now, without a game, and MWO will exist in the future, with or without Wraith, and hopefully even better then it was originally and open to all players.

Indeed, I would hope it would exist without me. I would hate to think that the community was so fickle to be dependent upon a single person's presence in it. I hope the game will be better as well, and I know it will be open to all players. You're assumption that because the game is being made a certain way with closed doors on things like imports, that it is also closed to other players. That is not the case. If someone chooses not to play the game because it isn't that way he/she wants it, tough luck. The devs aren't working to make a game for a single person, but a specific community.

As far as stepping on your opinions, I responded "disrespectfully" because you put words in my mouth and made horrible assumptions. I don't like it when people extrapolate erroneous information in their posts about my meanings.

You insult my logic when I have a far better grasp on it than you. You want to discuss logic? Let's do it. I love it. I want logical answers. Take my posts, assign each statement logic variables, and use logic equations to show why my posts are illogical. The problems is you made heavy use of assumptions in your posts but accept them as fact. You brought your ideas to the table, which do not even need logic, and then subsequently offered pathetic, baseless responses to well-formed, logical responses. Your attempt at slandering my ability to reason has been sounded crushed, and you have made a fool of yourself in this community. If I were you, I would not be able to show my face again.


Yeah your response that you probably copy pasted off somewhere else is really nice but holds no value in our argument. Your theory is really touching and nice but then again you have even stated by your own theory, that your theory is false, and therefore not relevant. Also, what you are describing is a fact, not logic. Logic can be based on good assumption because thats how we use logic although it can be good or bad.

say for instance I am told that:
A = B
B = C
They are given and are facts.

I can therefore logically assume that C = A based on facts, but if I also know that:
D = C
This is also given and is a fact.

I can then logically assume D = A based on the assumption that I made that C = A and I can also logically assume D = B based on the facts B = C and D = C.


Now if you disagree or whatever I really don't care I guess I'll put it another way. Could you give any good support for your reasons why you hate my ideas or why yours are so amazing? Also twisting words is not a good way to show support for your ideas or against mine. You understood what I was saying and you are trying to act as if you don't.

Also I look at your previous post and I think you should also. You are very disrespectful to almost everyone you post to. Also almost all your post are just very unproductive especially the ones you've decided to post in my thread. Also thanks for ruining my thread.

So you know a little about me: I've never studied any philosophy in my life. I debated and been admired by PhD's in the subject. I spent years of my life contemplating existence (absolute and relative), time, and the purpose of being. Yours a is simple-minded understanding of existence; you accept what reality says, accept what your mind produces. You are truly pathetic in my eyes.

Let's expose the "facts":
If you are told that A == B and B == C, why do you assume that the laws at work are correct? Why is not true = false? Do you know these answers? I consider myself a logician and am a mathematician (my other degree aside from computer science). You are really barking up the wrong tree.

First off everything is paradoxical if you look hard enough. These are the easiest ways to hopefully open your eyes to reason:
If I make a claim, you want proof, correct?
If my proof is an assumption, is my proof then invalid?
If you gave a yes or no to either of the questions you have already lost discussion logic and "proved" how little you understand.
Do you know what an axiom is? It is synonymous with an assumption. Axiom are the basis of all logic. Logic is the basis of all thought.
If I make a claim, and you say it requires proof, then I ask you to prove that A == B and B == C.
If I make a claim, and you say it doesn't require proof, then it is so.
If my proof is an assumption, and you say an assumption is invalid for proving it, then I say you cannot use any laws of logic, math, or any field of science, since everything based on logic requires a set of axioms in order to function.
If my proof is an assumption, and you say an assumption is valid for proving it, then it proved.

This method of reasoning is more logical than any other form, yet it yields that logic is illogical. So what should you have done? Gone in the middle. Tell me not true doesn't necessarily mean false, and not false doesn't necessarily mean true. We assume these things to be true, but there is no proof. We have a limited set of knowledge, and any variable in all of existence and non-existence can act upon existence and what we are trying to deduce. If we are lacking even one "bit" of information (applying a hideously limited understand of knowledge by constraining it to the definitions capable of reasoning by the human mind), then we are unfit to declare a truth value for any given equation.

Play the game with me, firebid, I love it. You don't have to give yet. If the above statement is true, then there must be a hole in it. Find it, and play the game with me. Or realize it is pointless to try and argue about things no human can understand -- all things.

I'm sure there are typos -- as you know, I'm human.

[Wraith]

Oh, BTW, I forgot to say thank you to RW and kev for supporting me. I don't have all day to check back here, so firebird got several insults in while I wasn't around.

[Firebird13]

ok ok ok...I didn't read all your post because I currently don't have the time but after starting to write back I noticed I don't really have the time for that either and that this could go on forever. Say what you want, but I'm not one to argue/fight/act juvenile and so I'm going to stop. You guys can keep going if you want I don't really care. I hate how forums work like this and everyone on them end up acting like jerks. I'm sorry for anything I said about anyone because I'm sure I didn't mean it and I hate to act that way.

I think if you look over my first post that you will see that I did not ask for a response like you gave. Also if you look at some of your responses to other post you can see that you disagree quite a bit with people and pretty much put down there posts. Everyone has a right to an opinion and really all I was doing is throwing out some ideas. You took my post the wrong way and I probably have taken yours the wrong way. I just want a great game and I still do feel that my original post was in the right forum.

I say we just blame this on EA and get over it but if you would like to keep going it will be without me.

[Wraith]

That's fine, firebird. I forget easily. I didn't intend any malice in my original reply to you or to anyone I respond to. I give my opinion and give my reasons for why I have the opinion, which, if it is different from the ideas suggested, will obviously be in opposition with whatever idea was posted. The point of the forums is to discuss, not just agree with everything, so I will always offer views on things I feel strongly about.

I can be very harsh when someone insults my intelligence, so apology accepted, and you can ignore any of the harsh things I've said.